Mark Sandler on Antisemitism, Hate Crime Law, and Bill C-9 in Canada

Neil Silvert: Hi everybody, I'm Neil back with you at the Your Grey Matters podcast. Thanks for coming on. Ladies and gentlemen, this past weekend, Jewish families woke up in Toronto to find that their mezuzahs had been torn off their doors. For those of you who don't know what a mezuzah is, it is a small case that sits on the doorframe of a Jewish home. It's sacred. It has scripture in it, it represents faith, identity, protection. So someone tearing them off doorways is widely understood as a direct act of antisemitism. It's not graffiti on a wall. It's not vandalism. It is an attack on the homes of people who are Jewish. Tonight's show is not about politics first. It's about what's happening on the ground in Canada right now and what citizens, institutions and communities must do in response. It's not just a Jewish issue. This is a crisis of Canadian law, identity and conscience. It affects all of us. And my guest tonight, and we're very honored and very proud, is probably the best person to help us navigate through all of this. I want to welcome everybody to meeting Mark Sandler. Mark is widely recognized as one of Canada's leading criminal lawyers and pro bono advocates. He's been involved in combating antisemitism for over 40 years. He's lectured extensively on legal remedies to combat hate. He's trained police officers and prosecutors on hate crimes. And he's promoted respectful conversation between Muslim Jewish groups, Sikh Jewish groups, Black Jewish groups, dialogues that are so important today. He's appeared before parliamentary committees and in the Supreme Court of Canada on multiple occasions on issues relating to anti-Semitism and hate activities. He's a former member of the Ontario Human Rights Tribunal, a three-time elected bencher of the Law Society of Ontario, and he's the recipient of the criminal profession's highest honor, the G. Arthur Martin Medal, for his contributions to the administration of criminal justice. He's a former national chair. and Senior Council of the Neighbourhood League of Human Rights. He is the founder and chair of the Alliance of Canadians Combating Anti-Semitism, ALCCA. It's a diverse coalition, get this everybody, of over 60 community organizations and groups that are cooperatively working together to address anti-Semitism. through advocacy, education, and respectful dialogue. There's over 100 distinguished Canadians confronting anti-Semitism and defending civil society with this group. Mark, thank you for joining us. I wanted everybody to know who you are. I thank you for coming on. We are really honored.

Mark Sandler: Thank you so much. I'm delighted to be here.

Neil Silvert: And thank you, Mark. And Mark, let's start right off at the beginning. I want people to understand who you are and what your great organization is. So tell our audience we're meeting for the first time. Can you walk us through your legal career, what pulled you into the work that you're doing now, and how have you been doing this for 40 years?

Mark Sandler: I wonder myself sometimes. Well, I've been a lawyer, a criminal lawyer for about 45 years and about five years into my practice I decided that I had to give back to the community and the way that I would do it was through combating anti-Semitism. So I originally did it through B'nai B'rith, one of the senior Jewish organizations in this country. And then I decided to do much of my work independently. After October 7th events that took place, the massacre of Israelis and non-Israelis by Hamas in Israel, I decided that I had to step up my game. And by that I mean that I was concerned that there were so many organizations that were acting in good faith in. combating anti-Semitism and other forms of hatred, but they were operating often in silos and therefore they weren't as effective as they could be in fighting this battle. I also felt that the Jewish community wasn't looking to non-Jewish community members for assistance because these are issues that pertain to all Canadians of goodwill, not merely members of the Jewish community. And it was out of that I decided to form this alliance, the Alliance of Canadians Combatting Antisemitism. We now have 65 community organizations and they not only represent Jewish organizations from across the country, they represent the various professions, whether legal, whether medical, whether dental, whether psychologists. They represent indigenous leadership, the Iranian community, Muslim. Muslims of good faith who have contributed greatly to these efforts, the Hindu community, and many others, because as I've said, not only is antisemitism and other forms of hatred a concern for all Canadians, we are seeing that much of the hate activity is being spawned by anti-Western hatred. Jews are simply the canary in the coal mines, so to speak, that when antisemitism rises against the Jewish community, we often see that it's accompanied by anti-Western hatred and denial of values of Western society. And that's particularly the case here in many of the incidents that we see. of hatred in our country, and I'll elaborate on that later, but that was the motivation for creating the Alliance, and we've worked collaboratively on a number of initiatives. So I'll elaborate on them based upon any questions you ask, but that's what prompted this different approach. And I should say as well, that whether organizations are members of our Alliance or not, we work collaboratively with everyone of goodwill. It's not confined to our members. I speak on a daily basis with community members. I met with leadership in the Hindu community yesterday. I met with members of the judiciary today. And so we're trying to reach out to as many people as possible. to explain what is going on in our country and what everyone can do about it.

Neil Silvert: And Mark, how are people reacting? mean, you were meeting some great, great people. Are any of them surprised when you approach them? Are they aware? I'm just curious of the kind of things that you're finding when you meet with groups of people.

Mark Sandler: So it depends on the people I'm meeting with. I have to tell you that I would divide them roughly, and this is a very rough division, into two categories. There are categories of people who are well aware of the issues that exist and have high levels of frustration about what can be done about it. And then there are those who really had no sense. of the extent of the problem until it's being brought to their attention. that isn't the case with anybody anymore in the Jewish community. The Jewish community is very much alive to the pervasive anti-Semitism that it now faces. But in the non-Jewish community, there is some education to take place. And as I said, for me, it's really important for those voices to be heard. in support of our community and in support of the fight against hatred generally. Because when a Jewish voice speaks out about anti-Semitism, it's important, but it has limited range and value when compared to the voices of non-Jews that speak out and say, will not tolerate anti-Semitism directed to our brothers and sisters. And I found that in my relationship with the Hindu community. We're truly allied in our approach to these issues. Each community has faced its own discrimination and hatred. So we have to work together.

Neil Silvert: Yes, and there's no question. I was very privileged, Mark, when I held an advisory position with MP Dan Muse. And we spent a lot of time visiting these different groups, the Sikh community, different communities. The outreach was terrific. And while I certainly am not in the league that you're in, I have to tell you there's a greatness in meeting great people when you find common bond, when you find common interest and awareness.

Mark Sandler: Exactly, and I'll give you a great example. So our honorary vice, our honorary chair, excuse me, is the Honorable Harry LaForme, who was the first indigenous appellate judge in Canada. And some of the pro-Hamas contingents have used the indigenous experience as somehow analogous to Hamas's position or somehow validating the slaughter of Israelis. He's been a very prominent voice in saying, this is not what the indigenous community stands for. On the contrary, we are appalled at the anti-Semitism and anti-Zionism that is being expressed on university campuses, for example. These are our traditional lands and they represent dishonor to the use of our traditional lands. So that's just an example of how these allies can assist in making the case against discrimination and hatred.

Neil Silvert: And I have to tell you that we had Justice LaForme on the show. were very privileged about six months ago and we've remained in contact on a weekly basis actually, quite regularly. He's a great, great man. I would also like to say you mentioned universities. Is your organization directly working with universities? Do you have representation from university leadership on your leadership?

Mark Sandler: great man. Yes, we absolutely do. For example, one of our organizations is called NECA, which is a network of engaged Canadian academics. And they have a presence in over 400 universities and colleges in the fight against anti-Semitism and hatred. And they make the point that this is in part about intolerance. It's also about academic freedom and freedom of speech, terms that have been distorted by those who demonize anyone who supports the right of Israel to exist as a state. And we're not talking about those who criticize Israel, its conduct, its policies. Some of the most vociferous critics of Israel are Israelis and those who support its existence. We're talking about those who demonize anyone who asserts that Israel has a right to exist as a Jewish democratic state. So, NECA is very much in the forefront of the fight on university campuses to address academic freedom and freedom of speech because it is the voices of those who support Israel's right to exist that are being suppressed now. They're being marginalized. They're being instructed by both anti-Israel advocates and far left professors that you should not even speak to a Zionist for fear of normalizing Zionist or Zionism. And this is antithetical to respectful dialogue. It's antithetical with dealing with the difficult issues in the Middle East in a principled way. And so what we're seeing is that the Jewish community is being held collectively responsible for what's happening in the Middle East. And that's exactly what antisemitism is all about. That's why when people are ripping Mazuzas, as you mentioned in your opening, the doorposts of senior citizens, that's directed against Jews. You can't pretend that's anything other than antisemitism directed against Jews. And it's no excuse to say we're unhappy with. how Israel's perceived conduct in the Middle East. One can debate all that, but that has nothing to do with targeting Jewish senior citizens in Canadian homes. And that's what we're seeing so much of. We saw recently the desecration of the National Holocaust Memorial in Ottawa. What does that have to do with protesting what's happening in the Middle East? That has to do... with antisemitism, pure and simple. And we're seeing so much of it. So to answer your question, yes, we have a large presence on universities and in the K-12 space as well, because antisemitism is pervasive in our educational institutions.

Neil Silvert: And I think, Mark, that's where I'd like to go with this for a minute. There's always been anti-Semitism, but it has never been so emboldened. In my 71 years, I've not seen this. I've not seen it come so quickly and frankly, so comfortably. I've not seen flags like this raised openly over a city hall of the biggest city in Toronto, and nobody seems to care.

Mark Sandler: Yeah, what we're seeing now, it's fundamentally different than the anti-Semitism I was dealing with in the 80s because first of all, I was largely dealing with neo-Nazi supremacists, white supremacists. Now, the biggest threat comes from a combination of Islamists, and I'm not talking about people who are Muslims. I'm talking about the Islamist radical movement. that exists, so we're seeing it from a combination of Islamists, from foreign countries that are proxies for terror organizations, and we're also seeing it from the far left, and the far left probably represents the most significant threat in many ways to the university and college campuses, because They aren't engaged in dialogue with students. They're not allowing students the opportunity to debate and discuss in an open-minded way the issues in the Middle East or any other related issues. They're indoctrinating. They're seeking to indoctrinate. And that is really dangerous. And it's very different than what I saw in the 80s because now hate speech is normalized. I can't imagine back in the 80s that we'd see the prominence of those who celebrate organizations like Hamas and Hezbollah and Islamic Jihad. Now, I see it every day.

Neil Silvert: Are we seeing it every day, And I'm not being disrespectful to the government of Canada or to anybody else. But I have to ask the question, who's in charge of protecting us from this kind of shocking things that are going on? We've seen anti-Semitism, as we've said, but in the last few years, I've not seen anything like this. And I've not seen... much of an outspoken reaction from people who should be speaking out against it. And I'm talking about our leadership.

Mark Sandler: This is a responsibility of municipal government, provincial government, federal government, and law enforcement. And we're seeing deficiencies in the response by governments at all levels and by a number of law enforcement agencies. And I don't tar them all with the same brush. Some law enforcement... Officers have been proactive in dealing with these issues, but we've seen many instances in which law enforcement are underutilizing the legal tools that are available to them to address hate speech. I'm not talking about lawful protest. I'm talking about hate speech, unlawful assembly, mischief, common nuisance, the various remedies that are available to them, intimidation. And that's unfortunate. because what is happening is people are utilizing freedom of speech as an excuse to not act in circumstances where the boundaries have been crossed and clearly crossed. You know, it's one thing, again, I have no problem with people who want to assert Palestinian self-determination, that want to assert for greater rights for Palestinians, who want to criticize the Israeli government for its conduct or policies. but that's not what the concern is. We're talking about people who are not only chanting from the river to the sea, Palestine shall be free, that encompasses the entirety of the current state of Israel, but they're chanting in Arabic from water to water, Palestine shall be Arab, which makes their intentions clear, that they want a Jew free Middle East. Or when they chant Sinwar, Sinwar, we have bullets for you, referring to the to the now deceased leader of an architect of the October 7th atrocities, you know, this isn't about freedom of speech anymore. This is about promoting terror activities. And what we're also seeing is we're seeing a number of terror plots that have been thwarted in the last year and a half. So Canadians should be alive to the fact that through the efforts of law enforcement such as RCMP and CSIS and so on, a number of terror plots that involved massive attacks planned against the Jewish community and other marginalized communities fortunately have not taken place through the intervention of police. But we are this far away, one step away from a Manchester, England, a Boulder Colorado, a Washington DC, you know, the kinds of killings that have taken place around the world. And it's scary. There's no doubt about it.

Neil Silvert: It is scary, it's uncalled for, but I'm glad to hear that CSIS and the RCMP and the police departments are involved. I'm not the least bit surprised, but there is too much of a calmness coming out of the capital of our country, and those can be my words, Mark. There's an acceptance here. I had someone who I know who's... not involved with some of these people, but they're fascinated by them. And he said to me, now it's from the Pacific to the Atlantic to the Arctic Ocean. I mean, I was stunned by the comment and shocking.

Mark Sandler: We're seeing a number of contributors to this. So the first is we're seeing foreign influence. So we're seeing money coming from Qatar. We're seeing it from Iran. We're seeing it from other foreign agencies that are intended to disrupt Western democracies and support radicalism. That's number one. Number two, we're seeing the influence of the Muslim Brotherhood here in Canada. which has been banned in a number of countries, including Arab countries, because they recognize the dangers of the Muslim Brotherhood in a way that Western society has not yet recognized in so many countries. The third is that we are seeing, as I've said, the radical left. And I was a member of the progressive left until it was hijacked by the radical left. And now it's... It's a litmus test for whether you belong to the so-called progressive left as to whether you are demonizing the state of Israel for its very existence. So we're seeing that happening. We're seeing people giving a free pass to Islamism because if anyone attacks radical Islamism, then they are labeled as Islamophobic. And I know from right-minded members of the Muslim community that they are as offended by this notion as we are. And that's why we ally with members of the Muslim community, because it's a very unfortunate thing when radical Muslims attempt to hijack their religion. So we see a combination of all of these things and there's not only a lack of awareness, but even once awareness is shown, a lack of commitment to do anything about it. And that's what we're fighting against on all of the fronts that I've described, municipal, provincial, federal, and law enforcement.

Neil Silvert: And you know what I'm waiting for, Mark? And I don't know, maybe I'm just dreaming too big, but there are only so many politicians, but there are over 40 million Canadians. And at some point, the population, I think, is going to wake up. And I hope it's not that they wake up because of one of these tragedies that the police have, thank God, so far stopped. But I begin to wonder when the sleeping population will wake up and... Maybe that will start with what's happened with Bill C-9. I'm wondering if you could just describe Bill C-9, what it is. It's controversial right now, but it's not a Jewish issue. It is a Canadian issue and a religious issue. please bring us up.

Mark Sandler: Sure. So C9 is the Combating Hate Act that was introduced by the Liberal government. It is currently before the House of Commons Justice Committee for consideration. I testified before the Parliamentary Committee and I took the position, which is now supported by at least 37 community organizations and still counting, that the legislation represents a first step in combating hatred as long as certain amendments are made to it. So it creates new offenses of intimidation and obstruction relating to access to places of worship. It creates a new hate offense so that a conventional offense will be labeled a hate offense if it's motivated by hatred with additional penalties. It creates a new offense that penalizes the display of terror symbols. And it makes it a little bit easier to initiate a prosecution because it removes a requirement that the attorney general personally consent to certain kinds of cases that currently require the attorney general's consent. I've advocated for certain amendments. The definition of hatred has to be straightened out because it's not entirely consistent with what the Supreme Court of Canada has said about hatred. the symbols offense isn't strong enough and it also fails to distinguish between Nazi symbols and legitimate Buddhist, Jain and Hindu symbols of worship because the Hindus, Buddhists and Jains were using swastikas before they were now appropriated in common usage through the Nazi use. But most important, or two amendments that we've suggested. One is that the attorney general's consent should still be retained if people try to bring charges privately instead of through the police because I'm afraid that these sections would be misused if the attorney general's consent wasn't available. So we've suggested amendment to deal with that and most importantly, I've suggested that there be a new offense of willful promotion of terror activities. Instead of getting into a debate about whether someone's speech is promoting hatred against Jews as opposed to Israelis, as opposed to Zionists, this would address willful promotion of terror groups and the activities of terror groups because there's no free speech protection afforded to someone who is promoting violence through supporting and endorsement terror activities. So for me, that's a simple solution to a difficult issue. So I have suggested that amendment. Roman Baber, an MP, has introduced a private members bill that captures much of the language that I had proposed. I'm hoping that'll either be adopted or incorporated into Bill C-9. Now the latest controversy about it, without getting too technical about it, is something that's called the religious exemption because the parties are fighting over whether an available defense to willful promotion of hatred, which is the good faith religious exemption, should be removed. And I won't get into all the nuances of the debate unless you want me to, but simply put, it's really somewhat of a side issue because that religious exemption has never been successfully applied in a prosecution before. So at one end of the spectrum, people are saying that it has to be retained to protect freedom of religion. They're really overstating the point. And at the other end of the spectrum, people say it has to be removed because you can't otherwise successfully prosecute. That overstates the issue at all. So we've lost nuance in the discussion about this legislation and I'm asking all parliamentarians to get together and get this legislation passed in an appropriate form so it can be utilized by law enforcement.

Neil Silvert: So Mark, right on that topic, after today, the news today, I'm not sure, is there going to be further discussion among the committee? Are there going to be amendments to this? Or as one person put through, are the Liberals just going to put it through with the block? And I'm only repeating what I've seen in the media. And that has concerned me through the day today.

Mark Sandler: The answer is we don't yet know. It's as simple as that because everybody's taking a diametrically opposed position on this. For me, there's a clear path to appropriate legislation with appropriate amendments from speaking to a number of parliamentarians. I know there is support in various parties for what I've suggested as appropriate amendments to the legislation. But where it'll go, Neil, at this point is very much a guess. And I'm not a political pundit. I'm only a lawyer. And so all I can do is put forward a sustainable proposal for how this legislation should be dealt with based upon my experience in the area. And I just hope that people of good faith will see their way to compromising in a way that promotes the best answer to these issues.

Neil Silvert: Thank you, Mark. I am hearing some things that I don't understand. So I'm just going to drill down just a little bit farther with you on this. read, sent out today by one of the leaders of one of the political parties, that if and when this goes through, if I declare myself a Zionist in public, I could be subject to prosecution. Do you believe that kind of thing? No.

Mark Sandler: I respectfully disagree with that. As I said, that's an argument that's based upon whether the religious exemption is applicable or not. But the religious exemption, again, without getting too technical, this is the defense to someone who allegedly willfully promotes hatred. And if you willfully promote hatred, you cannot be expressing in good faith an opinion on a religious topic. So this really doesn't give additional powers to prosecute people for saying that they're Zionists, nor does it take away the ability to prosecute people who are willfully promoting hatred. So I respectfully disagree with that, and I did see that being said today.

Neil Silvert: Yes, and you know who it is and it was surprising. Just to explain one other thing, I've heard it said that there will be certain scriptures, certain parts of the Koran, certain parts of the Torah that could be deemed hate speeches. Is that true or is it just more nonsense?

Mark Sandler: It's not true, no. You gotta remember, this section, willful promotion of hatred, has existed now for decades. Its constitutionality was upheld 34 years ago. So all of a sudden, these arguments are all being resurrected. And in my view, there's absolutely no merit to these concerns.

Neil Silvert: So there is validity to C9, but it needs work, is what you're

Mark Sandler: It needs some work, but it doesn't need the kind of work that some people are suggesting. And there are easy solutions, and I've set them out. again, 37 organizations have supported what I set out as appropriate amendments to the legislation. So I'm hoping, as I said, that good sense will prevail. But this is our parliamentary system. It is a minority government. There are polarized, there's polarization within our government of course and so it's difficult.

Neil Silvert: So Neil Silver wonders, and apparently a lot of other people do, that if we keep on in this way, perhaps the bloc and the liberals push this through. There are other major problems in this country. This is not by far the biggest. But the question becomes, does this, I guess the question is, is there a future for the Jewish community in Canada if this stuff continues? the raising of flags, the anti-Semitism, and what so far I believe is a lack of attention by those in power to what is happening.

Mark Sandler: Well, I think the answer is that, and I think your listeners should know two realities that now exist in the Jewish community. The first is the number of Jews that are asking themselves whether there is a place for them in Canada. That's an astonishing development. Horrific. Given the fact that Jews felt very secure. for the last number of decades in being an integral part of Canadian society. And that is the level of hate that they're experiencing that they are seriously considering whether they have a continuing role in Canadian society. The second thing that is disturbing, and it's kind of unbelievable to even talk about it, is that I know so many Jews that have asked each other the question, if we ever had to hide. which of our friends would hide us? In other words, they're thinking in terms of 1930s Nazi Germany. And for people who are listening, that sounds astonishing. That sounds extreme. Like I get it. I get it. Because we're not Nazi Germany. We're not anything close to Nazi Germany. But the fact that people are asking that question. merely as a hypothetical, of course, at this point, really tells you how disturbing the situation is to Canadian Jews. And remember, so many of the members of the Jewish community are descendants of Holocaust survivors, just one generation past. And so they've heard the stories and they recognize that Jews were at existential risk in the past and feel that way today. That's the reality.

Neil Silvert: I must say, Mark, I'm 71 years old. have children and grandchildren and born in Hamilton, Ontario, raised here, but my family's ran from Russia after the revolution in Russia. Now we're seeing things like that here in the country possibly developing and it is shocking. actually, Mark, I have some friends actually are looking for a new place. They are already planning on leaving. This is, we say in Jewish, a shun the, this is a disgrace because I'm sure for you too, Jewish people have been building this country for over 200 years. We fought in the wars. We've done our part. We've been a part of the fabric of this country. And for this kind of thing to raise its head. And as you said earlier, with people possibly who are quite new to this country and who are attempting to take over this country and my in my own personal belief that people who are a part of this fabric for hundreds of years should feel challenged of any religion. But Jews are getting it today. And as I said, I'm wondering if the population of Canada will wake up and say, Mr. politician, Mr. this ain't happening. this is we're going to stop it.

Mark Sandler: This is our challenge, Neil, because if politicians weigh the demographics and they think this is an issue of Muslims versus Jews, they've miscalibrated because in my view, this is an issue of law and order. That's what it's all about fundamentally, whether it's directed against Jews or members of the LGBTQ community or the black community, the Muslim community, The point is that even though Jews are taking a lot of the brunt of this right now, this is an issue of law and order that should concern all Canadians. And frankly, we could cut this out in large measure tomorrow if enough of the non-Jewish members of our community would say, we've had enough. We do not accept. that our campuses should be disrupted. We do not accept that protests that spew hate should be condoned. We do not accept that our fellow members of the community that are Jewish should be subjected to this kind of vitriol. And we're letting you government know that we will stand in support of those communities particularly now the Jewish community that is being victimized. If that were happening en masse, then politicians could not ignore that.

Neil Silvert: I agree. I always say to my friend who's in politics, one of the most wonderful, terrific men and a great friend to the Jewish community, MP Dan Muse, but I always say there's only 340 some odd of you guys. There's millions and millions of Canadians. And at some point, Canadians are going to remember we're in charge, not the politicians. That has been forgotten and it's not being taught in schools and we're upside down. Mark, if a person wants to help in any way, being Jewish or non-Jewish, if they wanted to do it through your wonderful organization, and thank you again for coming on, is there a role for them? know locally here in the Hamilton Jewish community, there's a lot of outreach going on, but can people get involved with you? Can they donate to you? Tell us what we can do to help you.

Mark Sandler: Well, pretty simple. If you go to www.alka.ca, I'd suggest that you subscribe to our newsletter because every one of our newsletters comes out with a call to action, what you can do on a particular subject to move the needle. And it's free. And so for people who want to get involved, in any way, then subscribe to our newsletter and you'll get a blueprint for action. We're a non-profit organization, we're not a charity, so if you need a charitable receipt, we're not the ones, but we get a lot of donations from people who are prepared to offer us some financial support. I didn't even have a donate button on our website for the first year. of our organization's existence because I didn't want make a donation to be the message. wanted read the legal analysis, the factual analysis, read what's going on in your community. I wanted the focus to be on that. So you can make a donation, a small donation. It's always welcomed. But the calls to action are reflected in our newsletter and that's the best way to move forward.

Neil Silvert: Well, thank you, Mark and to everybody. This is bigger than just a Jewish situation. It affects all of us. As Mark said, please visit Mark's website. If it excites you, please get involved in your own communities, Jewish or non-Jewish. Get involved. You've all heard me. I took a job with an MP before the last election because I had to do more. I will be right out there. You must get involved. You must find out answers and don't just depend on your TV or your media. Get out and meet people who know. And if you want to make a difference in this country and help keep our democracy, in my opinion, then you need to get involved. Mark, bless you. Thank you. We are so honored to have you on our show and we hope that you will come back again.

Mark Sandler: Thank you for having me.

Neil Silvert: Really a pleasure and everybody, we'll be back next week. Thanks for tuning in. Have a great week and good evening everybody. Thank you. Thanks for watching. If you found it interesting and you liked it, give us a thumbs up. If you're ready to subscribe, click right here. And if you'd to see another episode, click right here. Tell a friend, send us comments. Thanks a lot.